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Again, knock it off. Final warning.

I don't care who you think started it, or continued it, or finished it...just move on.

Forums repeat topics and have old topics resurrected. It is the nature of them. Most of the resurrections here have been okay. When it prompts new discussions even about old topics there is nothing wrong with that. I mean, what's a discussion forum if there is no discussion? However, I do want you folks to keep this civil and this back and forth banter is getting close to crossing lines.

Again, take a break for a couple days and then come back if you're getting that emotional about things. This goes for everyone. I had to retype this three times to make sure my emotions are out of it.
 

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A 2009 article at fuel-testers.com states that a "newer" vehicle in good condition will lose 2-3% economy on E10, while an older vehicle can lose up to 20%.
 

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I would guess that an older vehicle doesn't have a powerfull ECM that can do a closed loop analysis of the burn rate and oxygen sensor readings. Even older vehicles don't have 02 sensors at all (i.e old fuel inj. systems and carbs).
 

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No indication was given in the article, but I suspect that TS is correct. Closed-loop engine control is a very powerful thing.
 

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Well, and there comes the rub as to what is an "older car"? 20 years ago cats still had O2s and closed loops systems yet I'd still consider a 20 year old car "older".
 

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I would guess that an older vehicle doesn't have a powerfull ECM that can do a closed loop analysis of the burn rate and oxygen sensor readings. Even older vehicles don't have 02 sensors at all (i.e old fuel inj. systems and carbs).
In the 1980s, GM’s first powertrain control module had four kilobytes of memory and executed 1 million operations per second. Today, General Motors’ electronic control modules perform more than 125 million operations per second with unmatched reliability. The Regal’s modern engine controller is tested under extreme conditions for longevity and functionality.
Buick Regal Engine Brainpower is Industry?s Quickest

Things have come a long way. Your cell phone has computing capabilities that far exceeded NASA's when they were setting up the moon shots.

Put simply, the iPhone 6’s clock is 32,600 times faster than the best Apollo era computers and could perform instructions 120,000,000 times faster.
Smartphone is millions of times faster than NASA's 1960s computers
 

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Again, knock it off. Final warning.

I don't care who you think started it, or continued it, or finished it...just move on.

Forums repeat topics and have old topics resurrected. It is the nature of them. Most of the resurrections here have been okay. When it prompts new discussions even about old topics there is nothing wrong with that. I mean, what's a discussion forum if there is no discussion? However, I do want you folks to keep this civil and this back and forth banter is getting close to crossing lines.

Again, take a break for a couple days and then come back if you're getting that emotional about things. This goes for everyone. I had to retype this three times to make sure my emotions are out of it.
Search for me on the skyroadster form isn't working. I get okay results searching on google and adding skyroadster.com in the search string.

But if search in skyroadster worked better I'd search before posting.
 

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Interesting. I wonder what about the older vehicle causes the larger difference? Do they cover that in the article John?
While we're on the subject of degraded performance and older vehicles...

This is a very good video: "GM Reduced Engine Power Mystery Solved"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5BEPmFB6cw&t=100s

According to this - over the course of a few years - the wiring in the throttle body melds together.

I get only 18 MPG highway on my Sky - and I'm planning on replacing the throttle-body by the end of the year.

I think of it as a $275 gamble.

If I win afterwards I hope get more like 22 or 24 MPG.

em
 

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While we're on the subject of degraded performance and older vehicles...

This is a very good video: "GM Reduced Engine Power Mystery Solved"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5BEPmFB6cw&t=100s

According to this - over the course of a few years - the wiring in the throttle body melds together.

I get only 18 MPG highway on my Sky - and I'm planning on replacing the throttle-body by the end of the year.

I think of it as a $275 gamble.

If I win afterwards I hope get more like 22 or 24 MPG.

em

Cant you just fix the wiring?

Never mind! Just watched the video. it was very interesting.
 

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This is/was an interesting thread. I always thought the base 2.4 required premium - I have no idea how but I totally missed the past where it says it is designed to run on 87 octane with slightly degraded performance.

As for octone my understanding has always been the ECM is designed for a particular octone, and if you go over that you get no benefit, but if you go under it, you can get knocking and noticeable performance decreases. I had a 400hp '05 GTO and an older '98 Corvette, both required 91 octane, and if you went under that you'd get knocking. On the Corvette you'd get pretty bad knocking, very noticeable - and it would go away quickly once you got some 93 back into the tank and it mixed around. My gf at the time took the Vette out and put some cheap gas in it, and it ran like garbage, and that's when I figured out octone CAN (sometimes) make a difference.

I'll have to put some cheap stuff in my '07 Sky and see how it runs. The price difference between 87 and 93 used to only be about $.10-.15 back in the Vette days, so it wasn't a big deal - but now it's routinely a $.60 difference even though gas prices have only doubled.

Anyways - I was wondering about this, googled it, and this was the first result. Thanks for bringing it up and talking about it.
 

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This is/was an interesting thread. I always thought the base 2.4 required premium - I have no idea how but I totally missed the past where it says it is designed to run on 87 octane with slightly degraded performance........
This may be true somewhere, under some conditions, but I did some quite extensive testing and found that, here at least, using 87 octane doesn't degrade anything.
 

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This may be true somewhere, under some conditions, but I did some quite extensive testing and found that, here at least, using 87 octane doesn't degrade anything.
I've tried it out and I'm unsure of the result, the car doesn't knock or anything, but it doesn't feel quite as peppy, like it's struggling just a bit to accelerate. Could be 100% in my mind however, or unrelated to the gas as the car is suddenly falling apart really quickly. In the last month the heat broke, then just the other night the hood release broke. In any case when I was talking about degraded performance I was just referring to the owner's manual, that's what it says in there. Not sure what under what circumstances it might degrade performance as it doesn't say and I couldn't find any references when searching for more info.
 

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As for octone my understanding has always been the ECM is designed for a particular octone, and if you go over that you get no benefit, but if you go under it, you can get knocking and noticeable performance decreases.
That is absolutely correct for older cars with mechanical advance rather than computer operated, and also for some injected cars that do not have a 'hunt forward' system that advances until there is ping and then backs off slightly. In those cases you have a set maximum advance and putting higher octane fuel in just makes a bigger hole in your wallet without producing any more power.
 
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